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re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...



This is not the bottom line, for baptism clearly means, as shown in Scripture, that a person has made a conscious decision to repent of sin and follow the Lord in newness of life. Anything else is not baptism.

The Bible does not say that Joseph Smith did not go to the moon, so Mormons believe his words that he did.

-----

An a propos example, because many inaccuracies have been promoted over the years by deciding that since the Bible did not expressly forbid such, therefore it must be allowed -- nay, even, desirable -- in fact, quite clearly, biblical. This has been a pattern for centuries.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

So wish we could talk in real life and get our Bibles.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Lizbeth, forgive me for saying this if I am way out of line, but I feel that I should bring this up with you today.

I feel that maybe the reason you are grasping to find evidence of infant baptism in the Scriptures when it is clearly not there is because you were told that you were baptized as an infant (or maybe someone close to you was told this).

Let me encourage you, that this is a decision that one must make for herself, and it cannot be made for you by a parent when you are an infant.

"Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead" (Romans 10:9). "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts2:38).

If anyone has not done this, I would encourage you to do so.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Oh my friend quite the contrary!

(btw great verse, but the Greek grammar lessons make clear this is not a list, do this first then this, like the English implies.)


: )

There is Biblical proof, and as I have stated over and over again you have to read the verses in context and also read all verses, no verse voids another, and in particular on Baptism you have to look at the verses about Baptism to see what the "mandates" are and where they are even established. In one place where one is speaking to adults in the Bible account, and tells them to repent isn't the whole story of Baptism and doesn't set up how it is to be done but sets up how to deal with adults who need to see their sin and their need for Christ.


(Read every verse about Baptism and since Baptism literally means" to wash with water", you have to read every verse about "washing with water" because in many cases the translator could have used the word Baptism because it is the same word as "wash with water". Look at the Old and New Testament too! Read the Old in light of the New just as Christ showed them to do, it is not just a history book the Old test, but it is also about Christ, Christ is on every single page!)


The verses like "Baptism now saves you is *conveniently ignored* and explained away as if God can't clearly say what He means, by those who have been taught to believe that Baptism was their action as proof of their faith and repentance.


And verses that describe that "Baptism is the new circumcision done to the heart with out hands and buries us with Christ" must also be ignored by those who think Baptism is something they do instead of something God does, and with that they ignore what circumcision did and then also miss what Baptism does FOR US thanks be to God!


And just like circumcision it does something for us ,and since we don't contribute to our salvation, God does this something for us! (which of course C was done to baby boys which is also inconvenient for those who want to believe we make some sort of intellectual choice for God because baby Jewish boys never made a "choice" .)

(What baby in an orphanage decides to be adopted? No, you see God adopts us, we have no choice, but when we are so smart and wise we may choose against Him, this is why adults are always being told to be like children in their faith.( We can see how just as pharaoh hardened his own heart three times and then God finally gave pharaoh what pharaoh wanted and God then finally hardened pharaoh's heart.)

And of course this leads us to things that are not in the Bible anywhere like, the "sinners prayer" and the idea that Babies get a "free pass" until they reach a certain age, again not biblical!

If that were true then their are two ways to get to heaven, the first is Christ and the second is being young enough! Not true!!
(Our comfort is that the Holy Spirit brings faith through the Word and thanks be to God He isn't asking to see a driver's license before He works faith.)


And then of course you have worry that the Holy Spirit cannot work his promises of working through the word and then we worry about "are our children saved?" and look for "their choice" which is a real knuckle biter, rather than seeing the clear promise made to all, no age limit and the comfort that God gives us for using the promises he Gives and using the places He promises to Be for our entire family just like Lydia and the jailer!



I write not to convince you but to serve others who are being taught to look at their actions their sincerity and their choices over Gods actions for them.


I have been there, and when we are curved in on ourselves in this way we fall into sinful pride in thinking we are doing it well, or we have despair because we know we can't do it well enough.

God's thankfully acts for you, this should be a comfort to all, even our children and even those who now are old and suffer dementia, and even those who have limits of the mind and never seem understand anything. The Holy Spirit works through the word, it is the same word of God that Baptizes, and the same word of God that is spoken at the Lord's Supper, and the same word of God that saved the thief on the Cross, God's word saves.


Just as Christ with his word raised Lazarus, so to the dead in sin (all of us at one point) are raised by God into the life of faith and eventual salvation!

No age limit on God's love for us!

Again, you may argue, you may dismiss, and have your theories about me, but from me, I write because of the general bias here towards things that all end up in the same general place, which is looking at my actions. Missing God's actions for us! I write for the benefit of the quiet one who may be reading and for whom the Holy Spirit may be showing them some of the inconsistencies in what they have been taught. I write for them, I know I cannot convince you and some others, but it is good to have these things sometimes under the spot light because it benefits some, and for us, you and I, iron sharpens iron.

This post was edited on Dec 15, 2017 09:17 AM

re: re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...


Lizbeth, another serious question: If a newborn baby dies, do you believe that he or she goes to Hell if there was no opportunity for anyone to "baptize" him or her?

That was what Roman Catholics believed in Martin Luther's day, and parents living in poverty suffered further deprivation because they did not know any better than to believe that they must pay money to the Catholic religious system -- which was already staggeringly wealthy -- in order to give their little babies a chance to go to Heaven! This reflected the acts of the Pharisees who, Christ Jesus said, laid heavy burdens on people which they were not able to bear.

This article from Got Questions.com addresses the issues you have brought up, including circumcision. I pray it will be a blessing to you.

Question: "What does the Bible say about infant baptism / paedobaptism?"

Answer: There is much confusion about baptism in the various Christian denominations. However, this is not a result of the Bible presenting a confusing message on baptism. The Bible is abundantly clear of what baptism is, who it is for, and what it accomplishes. In the Bible, only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized - as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him (Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3-4). Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience after faith in Christ. It is a proclamation of faith in Christ, a statement of submission to Him, and an identification with His death, burial, and resurrection.

With this in view, infant baptism is not a Biblical practice. An infant cannot place his or her faith in Christ. An infant cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ. An infant cannot understand what water baptism symbolizes. The Bible does not record any infants being baptized. Infant baptism is the origin of the sprinkling and pouring methods of baptism - as it is unwise and unsafe to immerse an infant under water. Even the method of infant baptism fails to agree with the Bible. How does pouring or sprinkling illustrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Many Christians who practice infant baptism do so because they understand infant baptism as the new covenant equivalent of circumcision. In this view, just as circumcision joined a Hebrew to the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants, so baptism joined a person to the New Covenant of salvation through Jesus Christ. This view is unbiblical. The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as the New Covenant replacement for Old Covenant circumcision. The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as a sign of the New Covenant. It is faith in Jesus Christ that enables a person to enjoy the blessings of the New Covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 9:15).

Baptism does not save a person. It does not matter if you were baptized by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling - if you have not first trusted in Christ for salvation, baptism (no matter the method) is meaningless and useless. Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience to be done after salvation as a public profession of faith in Christ and identification with Him. Infant baptism does not fit the Biblical definition of baptism or the Biblical method of baptism. If Christian parents wish to dedicate their child to Christ, then a baby dedication service is entirely appropriate. However, even if infants are dedicated to the Lord, when they grow up they will still have to make a personal decision to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

Recommended Resource: Baptism: The Believer's First Obedience by Larry Dyer


re: re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

In answer to your question, no.

The Bible does not show that to be true.

One verse that describes God's grace is this "He who believes and is Baptized shall be saved, he who believeth not shall be damned."

Notice that that verse *doesn't* say that the absence of Baptism damns but rather the absence of faith.

(Just as babies in the Old Testament infants of faithful believers in the coming Messiah, who died before they were circumcised were not doomed to hell. *Baptism* which the Bible describes as the "new circumcision done to the heart with out hands" is an application of God's grace, faith of course has to be nurtured as we learn in the story of the sower who sowed seeds, and also in the parable of the talents.)

But we can take comfort in this verse

Romans 10 vs 17.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.( Babies hear in the womb, they have proved that, and our God is big enough to work even in the smallest places.)


And here we can also see how God works even in the womb but this verse.
Psalm 22 vs 10
"From birth I was cast on you; from my mother's womb you have been my God."

Only the converted heart *has* God, before we have faith we are "dead in our sin" as the Bible describes, and the author of this Psalm says he Had God since he was in his mother's womb!

What a blessing that God can convert hearts in the womb, how does this happen you ask?

It happened because we are told in Romans 10 vs 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And we can also see that John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb when she was near Christ in the womb, someone dead in sin cannot see or recognize our Savior so he had faith, he was converted in the womb, through hearing the word of God. (And no the author of the Psalm and John the Baptist were not some super people that were blessed beyond others with infant faith, Our God cannot support falsehoods so if any baby can have faith in the womb all could, given faithful parents who hear the Word of God allowing then for the Baby to hear the word of God also.)


God doesn't lie to us, God cannot lie to us and the Bible is the very word of God, who doesn't lie to us, and cannot support false hoods.


Psalm 22 vs 10
"From birth I was cast on you; from my mother's womb you have been my God."

We are told clearly in the Bible that faith comes from hearing the word of God, we are also warned again and again that we must be like little children, this is not some cute wording but a true warning from our True God who cannot say untruth, that adults are more at risk for rejecting our God and the seeds once planted.


YOu said just now that baptism doesn't save yet the Bible, the very word of God says "Baptism now saves you".

The word of God, and our God cannot lie or support falsehoods, also says that through our baptism which is circumcision done with out hands we are buried with Christ.

So Baptism does *something*! : )

It is God's grace applied to us, through HIS word.

The same word of God saved the thief on the cross, the word of God baptizes us and the word of God saves the Baby who hears the word taught while in the womb.


But the word of God does *not* describe that children are somehow "safe" until they reach a certain age. That is unbiblical. There is no age of accountability spelled out in the Bible.

If there were there would now be*two* ways to get to heaven,

Number one of course being Christ

and the 2nd, would be being *young* enough.

No I know many have been taught this but it is false comfort, your real comfort comes from knowing that faith comes from hearing the word of God and you who have taken your children to church each Sunday and also read the Bible to them you can know that the Holy Spirit works as promised and take comfort in how adults are told to be like those children who are not encumbered by *reason* and *wisdom* like we adults who are more likely to push away the free gift of salvation.

There is only one way to be saved and that is through Christ, thanks be to God that we are shown through His word that infants had faith, (for they recognized their God, this *recognition* can only be done by those who have a converted heart because we are dead in our sins before our conversion and cannot desire the things of God when we are dead) that goes for all people even those tiny persons in the womb.









re: re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...


So ... going by your logic (which is not written in the Bible), babies who do NOT have the luxury of hearing the Word of God in their mothers' wombs (don't have Christian relatives around, are never in church, etc) and die at birth have to go to Hell?

That is the inescapable conclusion of your belief.

Since the scripture in Acts 8 specifies that "the men and women" of a certain town believed on Christ Jesus and were baptized -- children were not mentioned -- that blows holes in the theory that since people "always" had babies/children in families, babies/children "believed and were baptized".

David and John the Baptist were specially chosen for ministry. Jeremiah 1 (which I read today) says that God "knew him when he was yet in his mother's womb".

However, they were saved like others of their generations -- by believing the Word of God, believing in the coming Messiah, walking with the Lord in fellowship with Him. The fact that John the Baptist recognized the presence of the Son of God while he was yet in his mother's womb doesn't mean that he was saved then -- plus, he couldn't be baptized at that time. The scripture doesn't give any evidence that he was baptized at birth, either -- or any other babies.

Again, the bottom line is that infant baptism is not taught in the Holy Bible. Baptism is for believers who have made a conscious, deliberate choice to confess their sin, repent, and receive Christ Jesus as Savior, becoming new creatures in Him in whom the old things are passed away and, behold!, all things are new. Baptism follows.

None of that applies to little babies or children who are too young to be aware of sin, confess that sin, and repent, receiving Christ Jesus as Savior.

Eta: Can babies sin? That's a very important question.

I remember vividly being aware of the Lord at the young age of 4yo. I asked my mother a very insightful question about Him, and she was shocked, too shocked to give an answer. I know that came from the Lord, and I was very aware of Him from an early age.

However, that did NOT mean that I was saved -- far from it. I lived a sinful life, not having a new heart and mind, but living for myself, throughout my childhood and many of my young adult years. I made some very unwise choices which caused very painful consequences.

Yes, the Lord was there all along, I could have (and should have) cried out to Him at any time, but I was stubborn and chose to go my own way (Isaiah 53:6) for MANY years until I finally surrendered my whole life to Him. Oh, the joy. Oh, the peace. Oh, the LIFE which I had not imagined was available! I was far from perfect, but my sins were forgiven and He gave me New Life which was completely different from everything in my former life.

The Lord has MUCH to say about people who are stubborn, hard-hearted, unwilling to give heed to His Word. Even if they had believing parents, were taken to Temple/Church every time the doors were open, they were not saved until they RESPONDED to the Word of God they had heard, confessed their sin, repented of it, turning TO God and AWAY from their sin, becoming children of God, new creatures in Christ Jesus.

People who resist the Holy Spirit's conviction of sin and stubbornly go their own way are NOT saved -- according to God's own Word -- no matter how many times they may have heard the Word of God while in their mothers' wombs and/or in a worship service. It's that simple. God's Word Says So.

This post was edited on Dec 18, 2017 06:31 PM

re: re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Oh my goodness, so God plays favorites and those two examples of infant faith in the womb mean nothing to you and me and our babies, for God doesn't give the free gift of faith to other infants, but only those two because they were special?


So the thief on the cross is a good, one time example of conversion right before death, with out repentance(and baptism), that teaches us about God's grace and gives us hope for our loved ones who convert right before they die even though they didn't repent or show any "good fruit" but these other stories about babies don't teach us about God's grace for babies...? Hmmmm....

God CANNOT lie to us and CANNOT support falsehoods so if one baby can have infant faith, that is good news for all of our babies!

: )

And it offers us real comfort because ****no where in the Bible does it say that babies are safe until they get to an "age of accountability"*****


That is completely made up! lol


The age of accountability is man's logic, and way of coping with how do babies get to heaven if I have to *choose* God, or make a decision for Christ, and have been taught to look at *my* own actions instead of what Christ did for you and your babies too!

The Bible tells us that we are dead in sin before our conversion.

The word dead means something. We are like a corpse. What dead corpse can* choose *Christ? (Said in a whisper, and with a smile by me.)

And since babies are sinful as Psalms shows us

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

They too need the Savior.



But is we curved inward and looking at your own efforts or choices. We can get confused by those actions or efforts or choices and begin to think that that is part of our Justification, those are not part of your justification but part of your life time sanctification.


Now, I keep bringing up this verse but no one seems to care about it.


Colossians 2 vs 11-13

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands




Look at this! : )

Baptism is the *New Circumcision*, and circumcision was done to babies, if babies were now FORBIDDEN from this *new circumcision* that would have had to have been part of the verse because everyone there at that time new circumcision was for baby boys.

Read the verse.

Baptism clearly DOES something!

The verse, the very word of God says

It buries us with Christ!

And we who were dead in our trespasses God made alive!

Cancelling the record of debt the stood before us!

This is good news!

God is doing this FOR US!

For you!

Baptism is God doing something for you!!!

(Not a law that needs to be followed as some sort of litmus test given out by God...no, read the verse again, it's a gift! God's action FOR US!)

: )

This post was edited on Dec 19, 2017 08:04 AM

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