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re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Lizbeth, serious question: How does one remain passive and be saved? Can one be saved in his sleep, for example?

Not only does the Word of God contradict that passive theory, you've contradicted it yourself.

In the verse from Acts 2 which you quoted and agree with, Peter's first word of commandment to the audience was "Repent." That is a word of action. One cannot repent in one's sleep. "Repent" means to consciously, deliberately turn from one's way of living (make a U-turn) and go the opposite direction.

The second command was "...and be baptized...". You definitely agree with Peter on that. Baptism is an action. People cannot do that while sleeping.

In the next verse after the last one you posted, Peter said, "Save yourselves from this untoward generation."

("Untoward" means "perverse, not going toward God".)

His command there was/is an action, as well.

Now, you know that I believe (because the Word of God reveals this) that the Holy Spirit convicts lost sinners of sin, giving opportunity to repent and be saved.

(The Word of God says that Christ Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith -- another verse which is very special to me.)

But this is the kicker, in this discussion: If a person is convicted of sin BUT does not repent, does not obey the Lord, takes no action, then he is not saved. According to Acts 2 along with the rest of the NT, this is God's own Word.

This post was edited on Dec 06, 2017 10:34 PM

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

M4J, I appreciate your wise and kind words of confirmation and support. As Jesus said, God's Word Is Truth (John 17). There is no more important message in the whole world. :)

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

We mustn't confuse our sanctification with our justification, yes the law convicts us to repent, the words of the Bible are true, but that action does not *bring* our justification, if it did then Christ died in vain.

NO action of man brings us eternal life, but the actions you speak of are the fruit of a heart that is already converted, and repenting is very good fruit. A person who desires to repent already has the free gift of faith, how come? Well because before we are converted by the Holy Spirit, as a free gift, through the preaching of the word, were the Bible tells us the Holy Spirit works, before that, we are dead in sin, a dead man cannot make some sort of action, try at the next funeral you go to, to command the dead body to do something, he will not, he is dead, when the Bible says we are *dead* in sin, the Bible means it, Gods word is true, so God gives us life in Christ through the preaching and the very desire to repent means we already have the faith.

God's word works, it is God's word that Baptizes the baby, and Gods word that saved the thief on the cross both are examples of how God applies his Grace.

Yes we are to repent, but lets say a person suddenly dies just moments before he can actually repent of every sin, is he doomed to hell? (Of course not!)

What if he sins again and forgets to repent of it? Is he doomed to hell? (Of course not!)

Can we ever fully repent of every sin we have done? (Of course not, because we are sinners and even our repentance is steeped in sin, there is no cure for this sin in this life, we desire to do God's will, but we cannot, not fully, for if we say we have no sin, we deceive our selves and the fruit is not in us. 1 John, 1 vs 8

No those examples above do not doom that person to hell because the repentance is part of our life time of sanctification.

We don't want to put the emphasis on the wrong syllable, we need to repent, but that work does not *save* us, it is good fruit.

IF we emphasize this action of repentance or any other action it looks like man takes, (but any good work is truly the Holy Spirit working through us so again *God* gets the credit for anything good we do, not us, and our *sinful pride*) out of context and in the wrong way it causes man to constantly wonder if he repented well enough or truly enough, and therefore he may at times wonder if he is truly saved.

Our comfort is not in *our actions* and that person who worries about such things is, by his very worry, shows us that he has a converted heart and is indeed saved because a person with out saving faith in our Savior cares not about these things, because the unsaved is an enemy of God and does not desire what God desires.

Yes the Bible says to repent and be Baptized, but please ponder these words as I have mentioned them from the Bible before and they seem to get glossed over. t
God is not lying to us in this verses or suddenly changed his mind later, the entire Bible has one author and every word is true.

The Bible also says

Baptism now saves you.

The Bible also says Baptism is the circumcision done with out hands and that it buries us with Christ, so if it buries us with Christ, clearly Baptism is something God is doing because I cannot bury myself with Christ.

This circumcision language used was well understood to be something done to babies, if this new circumcision was forbidden on babies that point would need to be made because everyone in that time understood babies were circumcised. So the verse would end with "but don't do it to babies now!"

In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the fleshb was put off when you were circumcised byc Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made youd alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.e

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

I love love love that passage you quoted from Ephesians, lizbeth. The Lord often brings that to mind to remind me of the POWER of His resurrection which is clearly shown there.

I cannot agree with you that the Law commands us to repent. Peter was not the Law, the Lord is not the Law, and it was the Lord speaking through Peter who urged the Jews to repent that day, to turn to Him from their sin.

That same thought is shown in Acts 17:30 -

"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent."

Christ Jesus said, "Whosever will may come." The word "come" is an action verb. All the verbs I referenced in my last post are action verbs. It is He who empowers us to believe and repent and be delivered out of darkness into His marvelous light, AND it is equally true that we have to receive His Word and act on it.

If a person is convicted of sin BUT does not repent, does not obey the Lord, takes no action, then he is not saved. According to Acts 2 along with the rest of the NT, this is God's own Word.

Remember King Agrippa, who said to Paul, "ALMOST you persuade me to believe."

I have known people like this myself, who were convicted of their sin but chose to resist the grace of God and go their own way instead of surrendering their lives to Him. The Bible speaks of people going their own way instead of the way in which the Lord wants them to go.

The Lord has given all people free will, and He will not violate it. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. As M4J pointed out, He made Hell for the devil and his angels. But if people resist His grace and choose death over Life, He will not violate their free will.

This post was edited on Dec 07, 2017 08:09 AM

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Law and Gospel are on every page of the Bible, the law on every page shows us our sin/need for Christ, the Gospel shows us what Christ did for us, which brings us comfort.

The law is also something we aspire to keep once we have a converted heart as we now converted desire to keep Gods law.

No man in the Bible is Law or Gospel, those men taught law and gospel.

I am glad you have seen people convicted of their sin, that is the law doing its job.

On Baptism we have to read every verse, and while it is true we must repent. It is also true that repentance is a daily and continual thing, so I am not going to get Baptized each time I repent either.

On Baptism we have to read every verse about Baptism and while the verse you sighted speaks about repentance, that was told to a group of adults in that context and yes repentance applies to us also but that verse is not creating the dictates of Baptism, you can see when Lydias family and the jailers family and even the thief on the cross were not told "now repent first before you can get baptized or see me in paradise".

Repentance is good fruit.

Looking at all verses about Baptism and looking at how it is now the new circumcision done to the heart with out hands, and seeing how it buries us with Christ, and that Baptism now saves you, we can see that Baptism is *doing* something, and the something is supernatural so Baptism is God's work for us where he circumcises our hearts with out hands and buries us with Christ (so that we can be raised with Christ.)

Circumcision was ordained by God, and applied to the Jewish boys at 8 days old. We have a God of order. Our God didn't say to those boys only 8 days old "now repent first"

Everyone hearing that Baptism is the new circumcision done to the heart knew exactly what circumcision was, so upon hearing that they would need clarification if the new circumcision was forbidden on infants, precisely because it was done on infants!
: )

This is not down playing repentance, repentance is important indeed. but as I said before what of the man who has heard the word now desires the things of God, which is evidence of the Holy Spirit working in him therefore he has faith because he cannot desire the things of God with out already having a converted heart, that man who dies, still goes to heaven even though he did not repent, Just like the thief on the cross.

And you are correct that Baptism is not a free pass to heaven as some have been taught, and then they care not or tend not to that faith and it withers and dies, but the Bible makes it clear that Baptism is one of the ways that God applies his grace to us, and that is why people in the Bible and now rush to do it immediately.

But of course after Baptism the faith must be attended to. And as we can see all over the new testament as adults are told to be like the little children who believe in him and on some verses it refers to even the infants that believe and in Psalms it speaks of belief in the womb, we can see that the advantage if for children, they tend to believe, it is adults in their jaded ways that question and discard the faith that was sown with the word, they are more prone to reject it.

This is the comfort for us as we consider our children. Our children hear the word of God and the HOly Spirit has no age limit and works on them also! And because of this we can know we are raising little Christians. We have comfort by the word of the Bible that the Holy Spirit gives faith through the hearing of the word! This is great comfort. It is the word of God that Baptizes babies. What comfort to know that the Holy Spirt works on babies and on those who are not in any way able bodied or sound of mind, he does not discriminate, the Holy Spirit still works for the woman in her 80 who has dementia, she doesn't now that she forgot every thing now loose her faith and comfort of the promises. (It is interesting because they often forget everything but when you do the Lords Prayer or speak psalms to them they can recite it too ...further evidence that God works and is gracious.)

With all of that said there are no verses in the Bible that support the age of accountability or that give some free pass to the person who are grown and have the mind of a three month old. But we know God's word is true and that the Holy Spirit promises to bring faith through the preaching of the word so with that thanks be to God we speak the word of God to them with preaching and when we say his word in Baptism and we have the comfort that this word is true and that they too will inherit the kingdom of heaven. They can't perhaps repent, or even reject God, they get the gift tossed in their laps and it is theirs, they just like the thief on the cross can count on the word of God, the thief heard it directly from Christ, we hear it directly from Christ when the word is being preached or spoken at Baptism.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

We have gone far afield from the OP topic here. Bottom line is, there is not one scripture in the entire Bible which teaches / depicts infant "baptism". The Bible is clear that baptism as taught and shown there is believers' baptism, an act which follows repentance of sin whereby one becomes a child of God, a new creature in Christ Jesus in whom the former things are passed away and, behold, all things are new.

No, we do not need to be baptized again every time we sin. The Lord has shown us in I John 1:9 what we need to do each time in order to stay in right relationship with Him.

When Peter commanded them to Repent in Acts 2, he was speaking of a turning point in their lives wherein they chose to turn from sin and serve God. That is when New Life begins, as referenced above.

I realize we may have to agree to disagree. God bless you, Lizbeth.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Not getting that vibe that you read my post carefully...but that's ok.
: )

Bottom line is there is not one verse that clearly forbids infant baptism and there are several verses that show us infant faith even in the womb, (so no decision was made for Christ, the faith was freely given, adults are at risk of rejecting it because they are so "smart")

and we have two clear accounts of Lydia's and the Jailers families and servants being baptized once one person had a converted heart and so to know think that in a tribe of aunts and uncles and all their children and all the servants and their families, that not one child was ever present in those accounts is reading something into the text : ) It goes against what we know of the people of that day.

Baptism is spoken of as the new circumcision done to the heart with out hands, circumcision was done to babies, if babies were now forbidden to have this new circumcision the text would have made it clear because the people of the day hearing this live would know circumcision was done to baby boys and they would need to be told that they shant do this now to

(God is good at making clear what he forbids.: )

Agreed that we have to agree to disagree on this.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Bottom line is there is not one verse that clearly forbids infant baptism

This is not the bottom line, for baptism clearly means, as shown in Scripture, that a person has made a conscious decision to repent of sin and follow the Lord in newness of life. Anything else is not baptism.

People who believe in infant "baptism" clearly believe that parents can choose for the child to become a believer when the baby is unable to make that conscious choice. But there is not one scripture in the Bible which teaches this, and the scriptures are clear what one MUST do to become a believer, a child of God.

The early believers knew this, so when it was said that a whole household believed on the Lord and was baptized, they knew this did not include babies. People in generations after them made up this teaching because they read into the scriptures what is not taught.

This post was edited on Dec 12, 2017 09:48 AM


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