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re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

I hear your concern and see this abuse you are talking about in many places today and yes, we agree that where scripture is silent we are to remain silent also.



But I don't see that here because circumcision was done to baby boys, at 8 days old, that was their adoption into God's family.

God's grace was applied to them at 8 days old, God's grace didn't have an age limit in the Old Testament but you are saying it now does have and age limit?

Jews hearing this at that time about baptism knew well what circumcision was, so if this *new circumcision* called baptism wasn't for babies they would need to be told this, because they knew well that circumcision was for babies and for all men who wished to join the faith.

And baptism is the "new kind" of circumcision done with out hands, the Bible doesn't say "now don't do this to babies" like our God allowed for before because this circumcision cannot now be done to babies like it was done before". This would be inconsistent to what they were taught about God so this would need to be clarified, so if babies were forbidden it would have been clearly spelled out. "Baptism is God's grace, a free gift applied to us, this grace has no age limit.



I think to be consistent we would be talking today about should baby girls be baptized because baby girls weren't circumcised....and then we would get out the verse you sighted about men and women were baptized...


The verse below speaks of how this promise of forgiveness of sins through repentance is for you and your children, not your children once they get to a certain age.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off,


And we can see that the Lord opened Lydia's heart. (The Lord opens babies hearts too through the word of God where the Holy Spirit promises to work, if it were a conscious decision to open my heart and accept the word of God then I would be contributing to my saving).


Then her family was baptized, and a chapter later the jailers family was baptized and his servants too.

This shows that baptism was immediate and also shows that the whole group got it.

In those days your family was basically your tribe, it was your aunts, uncles, grandparents all your children and all your relatives children and your servants and their children too.

It is reading into scripture to make the claim that no children were in either of those two households. It is reading into scripture to say that children weren't present or were left out of baptism.

You can also see that in places were repentance is talked about in the Bible that in many places the greek grammar tells us this repentance was done to us, meaning we are passive recipient of that too! : )meaning "the Lord caused us to repent" so too that is God's work for us.

The verses speaking about repent and be baptized are not a do this first and then that, it is do this and AND do this, at the same time.




re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...


Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off,
--------

As you already know, I absolutely love those verses. They have been very special to me for years.

Verse 39 says that promise would apply to the generations to come from the time that promise was given. It does not teach the baptism of unrepentant people of any age, nor does it say that unrepentant people of any age will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Applying water to unrepentant, unregenerate people does nothing for them except make them wet. That is not baptism.

Now, since you say that verse applies to babies ...

Do infants repent of sin (do babies sin)? The very first command given there by Peter is "Repent". Repentance clearly leads to salvation.

For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation ... 2 Corinthians 7:10

This is clearly seen in Philip's ministry to the Ethiopian eunuch, who, after he had heard and understood and responded to the Gospel, wanted to be baptized.

In Romans 10, the Lord says, That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Do babies confess with their mouths the Lord Jesus, and believe that God has raised Him from the dead?

Only repentant, born again people can be truly baptized (in spirit, not just the outward act). That is ultra-clear in the Scriptures, including the one you quoted.

Christ Jesus said, as recorded in Matthew 10: If you confess me before men, I will confess you before my Father in Heaven. If you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father in Heaven.

Do babies confess Christ Jesus before men?

There are umpteen other scriptures like these, which clearly show that salvation is given by the Lord in response to saving faith in a person's heart, which is a response to conviction of sin which comes by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism was and is meant to be an outward reflection of what has already happened in a believer's heart.

Not one scripture says that salvation can be imparted to babies by the faith of their parents or any other relatives. The Lord tells us in John 1 and 3 (and many other places) how people become children of God.

ITA that where scripture is silent we are to remain silent also. But scripture is not silent about conviction of sin, godly sorrow leading to repentance, forgiveness of sin, salvation, and baptism. Far from it.

It is definitely reading into scripture to say that children were ever baptized. There is not one such occurrence spoken of in the Bible. No One who was not a repentant believer was baptized in the early days of the church.

This is why baptism of infants is not seen or taught in the Bible -- only baptism of believers who were convicted of sin and responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit with repentance.

We dare not add to the Scriptures what is not written therein. Christ Jesus gave a stern warning about people doing that, in Revelation. He said that anyone who does that will have their name removed from the Lamb's Book of Life. :O

(I have been extremely busy since before Thanksgiving, or I would have replied sooner.)

This post was edited on Dec 06, 2017 07:29 AM

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

In the English it looks like a list you do in order.

But in the Greek grammar rules apply and it is not a list you do in order but rather these are the two things to do this and this, not this and then that.

When you read about repentance, the English is vague, meaning it can cause confusion because our grammar rules don't make clear what is going on, but many times in the Bible *repentance* is something done to me and I am a passive recipient of that.

So even repentance is something God caused in me. If I could take credit for that I would then have to keep considering did I do that well enough? But because God does that and we are the passive recipients of recipients of the repentance.

God does it all, and God has no age limits for his love and God adopted the Jewish boys into his family at 8 days old, our God of patterns and order loves your babies too!

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...


Lizbeth, please read my post again. I just edited it to make it clearer, adding scripture which clarifies the point even further.

You are saying that God works salvation in people without any action on their part. This is completely contrary to the Word of God. Throughout the NT (including the scriptures I posted) He makes that abundantly clear.

The New Covenant is infinitely superior to the Old Covenant. (The book of Hebrews lists the ways this is so.) Even so, your statement about Jewish boys is not true across the board, for if it were, Jewish girls would not have been considered His people, but we know they were.

We also know from the OT scriptures that many Jewish boys who were circumcised rebelled against God when they came of age, thus forfeiting their inheritance (Esau is just one example). Circumcision did not save the OT Jews. Faith did. Just as faith saves people today. It is the gift of God, which people must receive to be saved.

This post was edited on Dec 06, 2017 07:48 AM

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Faith did. Just as faith saves people today. It is the gift of God, which people must receive to be saved.


^^^


Beautiful.

I agree with the entirety of your posts. Thank you.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

I have read your post and reread it;'

You said this.

"There are umpteen other scriptures like these, which clearly show that salvation is given by the Lord in response to saving faith in a person's heart, which is a response to conviction of sin which comes by the power of the Holy Spirit."

The Holy Spirit is the Author of our faith.

When I read your post I am confused. It sort of sounds like you are saying when you say faith is a response that some how faith is my work?

Is that what you mean to say?

Faith, is the work of the Holy Spirit, not my work. Faith is not an action I take.

If faith is my work I must do, than I am taking part in my own saving, that demotes Christ and our need for him. It is either a free gift or not, if I have some work to do in order to get the promises of God, it is not a gift then but something I earn.

Good works are a result of faith, from the natural over flow of the joy of the heart upon knowing our one true Savior. My faith is not a good work, but a gift it is not an action I take but a gift of the Holy Spirit from hearing the word of God (The word of God baptizes us by the way, do you mean to say that there is some quota of words that I must hear before our Gracious and loving God can give us the Holy Spirit?).

Rightly so, you look to see a persons fruit, but the actions of man doesn't save us.

My action of repenting was caused by the Holy Spirit.
So it is not my action when he caused us to do it God gets the credit there too. If it were my action then I would be always wondering if I did it good enough. THis is why in many churches you see people getting baptized over and over again because they wonder if they did it well enough. If a person believes they must do a "work of repenting and work of Baptising and doesn't see it as a gift from God they then are left wondering if they were sincere enough, or did it well enough. If we trust the Bible when it says there is one baptism , and when it says Baptism now saves you, you then can see that this is God's work for you, a gift for you, and when God gives it, we are never left doubting if he did it good enough.

My action of baptism is not my work, but the work of God who has told us in the Bible that Baptism now saves you!

If it were my action it would be me contributing to my saving.

Baptism is also the circumcision done to the heart with out hands says the Bible. A man can not circumcise the heart, this is clearly Gods action.

That of course does not mean a man can get this circumcision and then neglect the gift, we have to nourish it or it will wither and die.

So you are correct when you show concern for those who claim they are baptized as a baby and now have some sort of free pass to heaven with out ever caring for their faith that was freely given and feely gifted to them. Look at the parable of the sower of the seeds. God spreads seed every where, he doesn't keep it from the poor, the young, the old, he is generous but that faith once given must be tended to, or it will wither and die.

It has to be cared for.

And just as the thief on the cross was offered God's grace, so to God applies his grace to us in multiple ways. It is God's grace that offers us eternal life and forgiveness of sins, but just as we can see by the thief it is applied through the Word of God, the same word of God baptizes, The same word read to us in church and in our homes.Through it He, gives us his Grace in the form of the Holy Spirit who is the author and giver of your faith.

No action I do brings it. I am a passive recipient of God's grace, if it requires an action by me, then I am contributing to my salvation. Our eternal life and forgiveness of sins is a free gift in which I can do no action or take no part in. I only get credit for messing it up, just as Pharaoh hardened his hart three times then God finally came in and hardened his heart, Any person can eventually harden his heart, some times that is a baby who was baptized and whose parents never followed through on caring for that faith, a seed generously scattered by the generous sower.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

That's the highest authority possible, the Word of God itself.

The Word of God is commanding individuals to take action -- to believe.

The Word of God notably does not say "Thou shalt be saved when the Holy Spirit causes you to believe."

God's Word says to believe.

And as Gr8ful pointed out, all throughout the entirety of Scripture we see the Lord calling people to Himself, if they will come.

If He didn't -- if they could only come IF His Holy Spirit caused them to come -- then those in hell could blame Him for being there. But no, God's Word tells us that hell was made for the devil and his angels. We were not its intended inhabitants. Anyone who ends up there chooses it, by rejecting God. But He is not willing that any should perish, says Scripture; however, some do not believe, and thus are not saved.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

But the Greek makes it clear that belief is the work of the Holy Spirit.

And the Bible also says clearly in English that

"Baptism now saves you"

and "Baptism is the circumcision of heart done with out hands"

If it is done with out hands, who is Baptizing then?

Man?


Context also shows us that circumcision was done to babies, now if it were forbidden don't you think that that would have been made clear?

It would have to read like this... because it is a pretty important point if it is forbidden...

This new kind of Baptism is circumcision of the heart, but you know full well in our times of Christ that circumcision was done to baby boys at 8 days old, so just for clarity sake you must know that it is forbidden to children now this new circumcision done with out hands.../

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