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re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

I may be incorrect, but I think the perspective lizbeth has been sharing is conservative Lutheran, versus RCC.
https://wels.net/about-wels/what-we-believe/

(This is also the doctrinal background of NWMD's Betty Mahmoody, and her daughter Mahtob.)





I totally agree with all you shared, Gr8ful.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

It is not conservative Lutheran. It is just Lutheran.

http://www.gachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/baptism-handout.pdf

https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/faqs/doctrine#baptism

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...


I don't know if that is lizbeth's doctrinal belief, M4J, but that might explain her beliefs about infant baptism.

I did not/do not believe she is RC. I just mentioned RC beliefs in the context of unBiblical beliefs not based on God's Word, beliefs based on silence, not taught in the Holy Bible.

Cults teach many beliefs based on silence. They say that because the Bible does NOT say they are NOT true, then they are true. That is a very dangerous belief, because almost anything can be accepted by that low standard.

They don't seem to have seen or understood the clear Biblical teachings which contradict those unBiblical beliefs.

From the link you posted:

The Bible and Lutherans teach that the Bible is the true word of God. It is inspired by the Holy Spirit. This means that God breathed into the writers the exact thoughts and words they were to write. As a result every statement in the Bible is the truth. One part of the Bible explains another part. It is the only guideline for the faith and life of Christians. We are to read and study it diligently. It clearly teaches all we need to know in order to obtain our eternal salvation.
--------

I agree with their statements as posted there. Their beliefs about infant baptism contradict that statement. (One little quibble: I do not believe we 'obtain' salvation, but that we receive it as a free gift. Maybe that is their meaning; I don't know.)

As you know, I thoroughly enjoyed reading about Betty and Mahtob Mahmoody, because of what their experiences revealed about M beliefs and practices -- also because once I had read Betty's book, I had to find out the rest of the story. :) I did not agree with all of Mahtob's Lutheran beliefs and practices, but that was not my purpose for reading her book.

P.S. The link wasn't clear on whether or not Lutherans believe that infant 'baptism' brings them salvation. I know that is an RC belief.

The Bible is 100% clear that this is not true. Baptism is only for regenerate believers, not people who are not aware (convicted by the Holy Spirit) of sin, coming to repentance, being born again by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I have known many people of different denominations/churches who truly believed they were on their way to Heaven simply because they had been baptized by a church pastor, some as unbelieving, unregenerate infants, all of them unbelieving and unregenerate at the time. That is heartbreaking to me.

Thankfully, a number of them have heard the true Gospel, have realized the error they were taught, were convicted of sin which led them to repentance by the power of the Holy Spirit -- becoming new creations in Christ Jesus in whom the former things are passed away, and behold, all things are new -- and were then been baptized with full understanding of what they were doing. That is miraculous and thrilling to me. :)

This post was edited on Nov 21, 2017 11:58 PM

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

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This post was edited on Nov 21, 2017 11:49 PM

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

But you see, baptism is spoken of in the Bible as circumcision done to the heart with out hands.

Jewish children were baptized at 8 days old. Actually Jewish boys were circumcised at 8 days old, they didn't decide for this circumcision that adopted them into God's family. (And Girls were still part of the promise were they not...?)

If you can take a moment and read the text below, you can see how it also says we were buried with Christ through our baptism.


If Baptism were merely some sort of action we took for what ever reason your belief explains we must take such an action then that would be *our works* baptizing and *our works* that buried us with Christ.

We cannot bury our selves with Christ.

Baptism is God's work for us. **His action**, he Baptizes us and buries us with Christ, God circumcises our hearts with out the use of hands.





This is from Colossians 2

6Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spiritsa of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.c




re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Lizbeth, we don't agree on everything (such as I don't believe infant baptism is approved in the Scriptures), but I wanted to tell you that I totally agree that baptism is the work of God and not man. The Scripture you referenced from Colossians 2 clearly shows that, as you pointed out.

The role of baptism has been watered down (pun intended) in the last hundred years (largely due to televangelists and modern theologians). But the role of baptism is powerful according to the Scriptures.

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal. 3:27). Man cannot do this. It must be the work of God.

"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." (Rom. 6:4). God raises us up in the newness of life through baptism just as He raised Christ.

"Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through ***faith in the working of God***, who raised Him from the dead." (Col. 2:12).

Baptism is a powerful "working of God" (Col. 2:12). We should not seek to discount it.

re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Mama Anna, I am glad that we both can see that the Bible clearly teaches that Baptism does something, and if it does something it must be God at work for us.

I appreciate you patience with me, and I will ask you a question now.

The Bible says Baptism is the circumcision done with out hands.

Circumcision was done to Jewish boys at 8 days old.

If God's grace was given to them through circumcision at 8 days old what clear verse explains to us that God *forbids* this circumcision done with hands now to be from being given and done by God to our babies. I use the word forbid because God is really good at making clear what is forbidden.





re: re: re: re: re: Wooops I gave you the wrong Bible verse...it was Mark 10 vs 15 that speaks of infant faith...

Lizbeth,
Now we are getting into the subject of authority. I don't believe in authority derived from the silence of the Scriptures. That is going beyond what is written - when we assume authority for anything that is not expressly forbidden.

I Cor. 4:6 says we should "learn not to exceed what is written." To me this means I should not assume that it is okay if I want to baptize an infant even though this was not done in the Scriptures.



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